Caroline Marrows: Speaking truth to power for those without power

On this episode of Better Business Outcomes, Stephen Waddington from Wadds Inc. welcomes Caroline Marrows, Head of News at Citizens Advice.

They discuss:

·       The role and origin of Citizens Advice in supporting people with issues related to legal, debt, consumer, and housing

·       Managing demand for services from the public, and insight from the media while maintaining high levels of customer satisfaction and quality outcomes

·       Navigating a complex stakeholder environment and speaking truth to power for those without power

·       The benefit of strong leadership communication and engagement in leading public and policy debate

·       How focussing on outcomes leads to better business outcomes and supports planning and decision making.

Presented by Sarah Waddington and Stephen Waddington

For more information visit https://www.wadds.co.uk/
With thanks to our production partners at What Goes On Media

Transcript

Stephen Waddington:

Welcome to Better Business Outcomes, where we discuss how good communication can transform and grow organisations with a series of global leaders who've set the standard for what great looks like. My name's Stephen Waddington from Wadds Inc. And in this podcast you'll hear from leaders and senior communicators about their leadership journey and how they create social impact. 

You'll also understand the areas you should be focusing on to build personal and organisational resilience. You'll find out how public relations can unlock value for your business and enjoy a great listen along the way. 

Today I'm joined by Caroline Marrows. She's head of News at Citizens Advice. Welcome to the show, Caroline. 

Caroline Marrows:

Hi. 

Stephen Waddington:

I wanted to ask you to start – Citizen’s Advice has an active role in the public cos conversation very much now around the cost of living crisis and you've got 20,000 volunteers advising people with issues related to legal debt, consumer housing, and other issues we're gonna come onto. Can you just give us a bit of background to the organisation though?

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah, sure. Well, it's interesting, we're in a crisis right now, but Citizens Advice was actually built for a crisis. Literally it started the day after World War II was announced, so it was advising people are rationing all the paperwork of, of wartime living. So it's really interesting how the topics change, but the fact that people need help to get through life doesn't, because life is complicated and there's so much paperwork and particularly if you're struggling, you know, you're thinking about benefits, you've just been evicted or made redundant or whatever it might be that people kind of challenge that they face today. You need help with that and help with someone to navigate it.

Stephen Waddington:

Okay. So you've, you've worked with Citizen’s Advice for the last five years. You say it was built for a crisis. We're in the middle of a crisis now, but can you talk maybe over that timeframe how you've seen demand for your services from the public and from the media?

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah. Well I started and I remember being told that this is not normal. It was Brexit at the time. This is not normal and this is not how we know we normally work and the environment we're, we're normally working in. And then straight away its, ‘oh, it's not normal, it's a pandemic. It's not normal, it's the cost of living crisis’. So it's never really been normal. I don’t what normal looks like. It's been an incredibly strange time in, in politics in society in the last few years. The biggest shift though, that I saw in that time was the cost of living crisis. So for us we started to see that emerging in kind of summer of 2021, you know, when all the energy companies went first. So it was about 30 in six months at one point. And because we are the statutory consumer advocate for energy customers, we had decades and years worth of insight into that.

Like we understood the technicalities of the market, which meant that we were getting a lot of media coming to us and asking us to explain all the challenges that we'd flagged years ago. And we're now kind of, you know, coming into, into brutal reality. 

And then that rolled very quickly into the cost of living crisis, where we really saw huge peaks in in demand for our services, for advice services. So, you know, we're helping two people a minute now with crisis support. So that's things like, I need a voucher for a food bank, I need cash right now. It, it's incredible. And, and some of the statistics that we're looking at now, it's like it we're seeing more people in a year than we have in the last five years combined, that kind of thing. So it's huge. And, and from the media side, like summer 2021, we saw that as, wow, this is huge. We're having so much demand, we're the capa right at capacity in terms of the press office. But it just didn't slow down. It was, it was incredible. So we we won an award in the news team last year for the work that we did in the Cost of Living Crisis. It's still going on. Like our broadcast interviews went up 500% year on year, things like that. It's

Stephen Waddington:

So, so your role is head of News implying that you are operating in the heart of what sounds like a newsroom environment. And, and clearly you, you've just described there that there's huge demand for insight for and, and access to your data on issues related to at the moment the cost of living. But, you know, societal issues at the moment. How do you prioritise working with the media? Becuase presumably you can't do everything.

Caroline Marrows:

It's the same way that we have to prioritise everything else we do as an organisation. So, you know, citizens of advice, we advise citizens, citizens need a lot of advice and a lot of different issues and no one else sees as many people with as so many different problems as we do. So that means that we have this kind of big responsibility about what we pick out to highlight. There's a temptation to do everything and to kind of respond to everything, everything anyone ever does or says. And the challenge for us is, is about how we actually have impact. How do we actually make things better for people rather than we've just got some coverage, we've just made some noise and then we've moved on to something else. So that is very much about thinking about is there anyone else in this space that's talking about this?

Is there anyone else who's got the same kind of insights and expertise in this area that could kind of take the lead on this? Is this something where actually we've got a unique voice and we can really add value? 

And that's why stakeholders listen to us. That's why, you know, policy makers, decision makers, regulators, government, everyone else listen to us because of that, that insight, that unique insight. So we kind of have to be very selective about what we work on right now. Cost of living crisis, it's the biggest issue facing people. So therefore it's the biggest issue that we work on. Maybe second to that at the moment might be energy market challenges, you know, particularly prepayment meters. So that was something that we'd been talking about for a while. And it's only in the last few weeks that's kind of really come to the fore in terms of media and political attention. So it's about where we can have impact.

Stephen Waddington:

Yeah, I, so I was looking at your transparency report ahead of talking to you the results you, the outcomes you, you derive are incredible and you know, there will be the envy of any organisation. So I don't, some headlines you solve 75% of customer problems, 9 in 10 of, of people who come to you with advice would recommend you, you generate 14 pounds benefit for every pound spent. How, how do you achieve that level of, of success? And let's remember the majority of your workforce is a voluntary workforce.

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's an incredible workforce. They're incredibly committed, talented, passionate people who really want to make a change, want to make the difference to people's lives, and they do every day. And they get a lot of training and they get a lot of support to do that. But, but really we hear from them now more than we ever have before, that they're running out of tools, you know, that, that people come to them and they do all the obvious things. They go through their budget, they make sure they're not overpaying, making sure they've got all the benefits, they're entitled to all of that kind of work. And then at the end of the day, they're still at the point of thinking, ‘I can't actually help you any further’ and you need more than that. And that's where the kind of, the second part of Citizen’s Advice really kicks in the advocacy part. It's about how do we solve these problems at source? How do we use the evidence and insight of all these people that have come to us, and then kind of take that on and amplify it and take it to the people who can actually make a change.

Stephen Waddington:

It appears to me, you, you've, you've taken almost a, I would describe it, an activist role. I’d be interested for your perspective on that. In, in speaking true to power for those without power. Has, has that been deliberate? It sounds like it has.

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah. I mean, I love that characterization of speaking truth to power for those without power. I think that that really resonates. We are not an activist organisation in that, we want to just make noise and kind of antagonise people, you know? It again goes back to that impact point. If we use this data and insight that we have based on all of the interactions that people have with us and our advisors, if we can use that and actually give that evidence to the people who can make a difference, then that's a good use of our time. That's effective. That's us kind of fulfilling our mission of actually being there to help people. 

It's not about just being noisy or, you know, having a reputation for being a troublemaker or anything like that. It's very kind of considered and nuanced and constructive. And, and that's why we have those partnerships with government regulators. The conversations that we have with energy suppliers or, or anyone else that we, we might be working with, like to make sure that we can all work together to actually make a difference to people's lives. Not that, you know, we're just famous for getting something in the news. Like it's sometimes we have fantastic successes where no one's ever heard about it. It's behind the scenes and, and that's just as impactful.

Stephen Waddington:

Can we ask about, can I, we talk about that stakeholder environment, because on the one hand you provide support to people on a whole range of issues from debt to benefits we talked about in consumer, you know, rights and employment rights, but then you're also an authority and source of data to government. How'd you manage that and that complexity?

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah, it's complex <laugh> and it kind of touches a lot of different parts of the organisation, you know, from kind of funding. Cause we're also some of our funding is from government and also some of our targets for advocacy work from government. Like, so there are some complexities that we have to navigate there, but it's just about just keeping an eye on the reason we are there about helping people and the fact that we have that credibility that anyone's talking to us at all is because we have that unique insight. So as long as we're focusing in on that and we are making sure that the conversations we're having are getting to a point in which people are helped, life is better for them than that's the kind of the guiding light, that's how we kind of stay true to the mission.

Stephen Waddington:

You used the word partner in reference to the government a moment ago. You are a charity, so you can't lobby government, government to source of your funding, but you've also got a role in raising societal and political issues. How'd you navigate that?

Caroline Marrows:

Well, again, it's just about making sure there, there isn't any restrictions on us feeling like we're fulfilling the mission of being there for people. So for example, we did a lot of work on, on universal credit and, and benefits. And we then took on a, a contract from the government, which was to deliver the Help to Claim service, which is about advising people on how they get their first universal credit claims or how they get their application sorted out. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, and with that one, we just make sure that there's nothing in that contract that means we can't raise problems publicly. That obviously it's more effective for us sometimes to raise them privately and get them sorted out. Because the point is getting it sorted out, but there's nothing that would ever stop us doing it publicly either. And that's the key really to, to make sure that we don't feel like there's any compromises there that, that are baked into any arrangements we might have. That it's always better to work as a partner with another organisation that's got power and influence and actually can make a change. You don't want to be an enemy, there's no point. But it's still, you can be a constructive partner, you can be a critical friend.

Stephen Waddington:

Yeah. Can you, I mean, can you talk about the, the campaign around payment meters and how you've, how you've managed that? How do you influence government policy or regulatory policy at the same time as being a partner to organisations?

Caroline Marrows:

Some of these things, it's, it's very complex because not everyone necessarily has the power to change things on their own. So the, with prepayment meters, the energy suppliers have certain challenges that they've gotta think about their business models. They've gotta think about being sustainable and not, not falling over and, and being there for their customers. Then you've got OfGem, the regulator who wants to make sure the, the market is operating effectively. And then you've also got the government who's got another role to play. So, some of the times when we're flagging this information, it's not for one person to step forward and say, ‘I'm gonna fix this on my own’. It is about having those conversations, no ground tables discussions, really honest conversations about how we can move this forward and being honest about some of the challenges on some of these fixes as well. And, and that's where the evidence is what we are bringing to the table. So sometimes we'll be talking about potential solutions, things that people could explore, but really what we're there to do is to present the evidence of how this situation is actually impacting people.

Stephen Waddington:

Right. I mean, it strikes me that balancing that, the complexity and the stakeholders requires such a degree of pragmatism. I wanna talk to you about your CEO. So Dame Clare Moriarty strikes me as taking a frontline in, in the debate very publicly actually in the media calling for a range of action. And the issues related to, to the work of Citizens Advice. What it like as, as you in a, for you, in a comms role working with someone that's so willing to work so publicly?

Caroline Marrows:

To be honest, it’s fantastic. Because with Claire, she's very willing to, to speak up publicly and forcefully. She's also very willing to listen as well. And we have everyone from press officers up kind of having conversations with Claire, testing the messaging. She'll challenge on things, we'll challenge back. She'll always respectfully listen to whatever it is that we're coming up with. Sometimes she'll push back and, and we'll go with her view. She's always got value to add, which I think is really, is really incredibly inspiring to work with. 

But also producers love her because she has this fantastic balance between the credibility. She knows all the data, but she's also got this fantastic empathy. So she'll always know a story of some something that's happened through a visit to our local Citizens Advice or some other conversations she's had about how this has actually landed with an individual which really brings it to life. So it's that head and heart approach, which is so intrinsic to all the other, the media work we do. And it also means that when she's having a conversation like with Justin on Today programme, and then she's having a conversation with a minister later on, all of that messaging is working for all of those different audiences because the head and the heart approach works with all of those different audiences.

Stephen Waddington:

And, and at the end of the day, it's all rooted in your frontline work and the data that you provide. So it's completely transparent and because of that, I guess f so forceful and impactful.

Caroline Marrows:

Yeah, I think that's what it is, but there's a truth to it, an authenticity, and

Stephen Waddington:

That's the word I was looking for - authenticity. 

Caroline, before we end - really appreciate your time for this conversation. We ask everybody on the podcast know, title of the podcast is better Business Outcomes. What do you think is the one thing that delivers better business outcomes?

Caroline Marrows:

Oh, that's a tough question, isn't it? I think it comes down to the word outcomes. Like what are you actually going to achieve and how you're gonna get there. So for me it's empowerment. If you have a situation where everyone knows what the North Star is, you know that, that cringey tone and everyone knows where they're trying to get to, but then they can work out how they get to it. I think giving them that, that that option to be creative and innovative - it's gonna get you to places that you never thought possible. So that's one of the great things about working with Claire that she know she totally lives and breathes that she'll, she'll trust you to come up with a great recommendation. 

And I think with - PR as well, it's always a bit of an art and a science, so you need a bit of faith. So if you can have senior leaders who can give you that faith and then put faith in the work that you are doing, and then you can deliver on the promise by delivering great coverage and great impact, then I think that's where a payoff comes.

Stephen Waddington:

And I suppose that purpose, you know, you, you tell the wonderful story of the start of the, the, the Citizen’s Advice, how it came to be founded after the war. That absolute purpose for helping people, citizens in society is very firmly a north star, right?

Caroline Marrows:

Absolutely. And there's some charities like food banks that are set up and they don't want to exist. You know, they don't want to be in a world where a food bank is needed and their aim is to not need be needed anymore. With Citizen Advice it's not really that kind of situation because people are always gonna need help. Life's hard!

Stephen Waddington:

Life's tough <laugh>,

Caroline Marrows:

On that positive note… <laugh>,

Stephen Waddington:

What a way to end. But you know, thank you very much for spending the time and you know, I really appreciate the work that you do and the work that Citizens Advice does. Thank you. 

Caroline Marrows:

Thank you.

Stephen Waddington:

Well, that's the perfect wrap to today's Better Business Outcomes podcast. My thanks to Caroline Marrows for joining me. 

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We'll see you next time.